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KHALILUR RAHMAN
Before I give comments on your reply, I must clarify some points from you.. I want your honest reply. Mostly you are referring to the letters written by Paul for the people of different cities. Most of these letters were written long after the departure of Jesus, may be after more than 20 years. These letters are included in Bible. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus. He never met Jesus during his life time. Paul was a staunchest enemy of Jesus & his followers. He took a leading part to condemn Jesus & to put him to cross. Several years after the departure of Jesus, suddenly Paul declared himself as the believer of Jesus & started preaching the teachings of Jesus. But his teachings were not same as taught by Jesus, mostly they are opposite in nature. Jesus ordered his disciple not to preach to Non-Jew. Paul was preaching to Non-Jews Pagans. Jesus told to follow the commandments & Laws of Moses. Paul said, it is not required, only believing in Jesus is sufficient for salvation. Jesus was circumcised & it was must for his followers. Paul said, it is not required. Jesus prayed to One God. Paul raised Jesus to the level of God & introduced Trinity. He took cross as the symbol of his religion. He preached that Jesus has paid for the sin of others by giving life on cross. Jesus asked his Disciple to wait for the Helper/Comforter to come. Paul explained, Holy Ghost is the Helper & he made Holy Ghost another God.
Paul's preaching was not agreed by the real disciples of Jesus. After seventeen years of his preaching, Paul came to Jerusalem to meet the real disciples of Jesus to get their approval of his preaching. He could meet only Peter, Jacob, John and Barnabus who were the real disciples of Jesus. He met them secretly & did not dare to meet others. But, finally these disciples did not agree to Paul. Paul went back & started writing letters to different cities in favour of his new concepts. Please read Galatians & you will find a clear picture what happened.
Now you may ask a question, why majority of the people accepted the concept of Paul. Answer is very simple. Paul preached his concept among the European non-Jew people who were Pagans.. They did not have any concept of One God like Jews. Moreover, it was a very easy religion. Only believe & you are saved. No extra work, no daily prayer, no fasting, no sacrifice, no charity giving, even you can commit any sin because Jesus has already paid for your sin. No restrictions on food & drink. I don't want to talk about sex life.
Now my question to you is: Do you follow Jesus & his disciples or do you follow Paul? If you follow Jesus, I call you Christian. If you follow Paulism, you are not a Christian, may be called Paulinist. Please reply honestly, because I plan our future discussion on your reply.
Paul's preaching was not agreed by the real disciples of Jesus. After seventeen years of his preaching, Paul came to Jerusalem to meet the real disciples of Jesus to get their approval of his preaching. He could meet only Peter, Jacob, John and Barnabus who were the real disciples of Jesus. He met them secretly & did not dare to meet others. But, finally these disciples did not agree to Paul. Paul went back & started writing letters to different cities in favour of his new concepts. Please read Galatians & you will find a clear picture what happened.
Now you may ask a question, why majority of the people accepted the concept of Paul. Answer is very simple. Paul preached his concept among the European non-Jew people who were Pagans.. They did not have any concept of One God like Jews. Moreover, it was a very easy religion. Only believe & you are saved. No extra work, no daily prayer, no fasting, no sacrifice, no charity giving, even you can commit any sin because Jesus has already paid for your sin. No restrictions on food & drink. I don't want to talk about sex life.
Now my question to you is: Do you follow Jesus & his disciples or do you follow Paul? If you follow Jesus, I call you Christian. If you follow Paulism, you are not a Christian, may be called Paulinist. Please reply honestly, because I plan our future discussion on your reply.
At 10:35 AM 5/25/2012, you wrote:
Dear Khalilur,
First, you are not answering my questions, but going off on other issues. I will address your questions here, but I await your other answers........
It's curious that you assert that the Pauline letters are basically heresy, but you base your arguments on other parts of the New Testament, while you are one who rejects the teachings of Bible itself, so you use parts of the Bible, which you reject to tell me that I should reject even other parts of it! Interesting strategy.
If you purpose is to undermine my faith, then I understand, if it is to truly seek truth as you said, then I do not understand why you do what you do.
Ok: you wrote: Paul was the staunchest enemy of Jesus and his disciples.
I ask: How do you know that? On what do you base this assertion? How did you learn this?
You said: Paul's teaching was mostly the opposite of what Jesus taught.
I ask: How do you know that? On what do you base this assertion? How did you learn this?
You said: Paul's teaching was not agreed with by most of Jesus' disciples.
I ask: Again, how do you know this? Where do you get your information.
Also, this is a simply ridiculous assertion. I actually study the Bible and I know what the various gospels teach, what the letters of Peter say, what the letters of John say as well as what the old testament says.
Paul's teachings did not disagree with those of the other disciples, but I don't know how to prove that to you without going line by line
You said: "Jesus told to follow the commandments & Laws of Moses"
Again, where did you get this information? The Bible?
My answer: In John 10 Jesus makes it clear that He has sheep that are not of the fold of the Jews, so Gentiles were also going to be saved: (Also notice here how the Jews thought Jesus was saying that He was equal with God).....
As for the Way of salvation, NOT being by keeping the Law:
John 3:1-5 This is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus:
"There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
NOTICE, no mention of Moses, no mention of the Commandments in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus instead said that YOU must be born again.
OK, now HERE, Jesus speaks of Moses. What does He say?
John 3: 14-17
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life
Jesus tells how He must be lifted up on a stake/tree/cross just like the bronze serpent was held up my Moses so the people could be healed from the consequence of their sin. Jesus was nailed to that cross by God the Father to pay the penalty for all sins, that we might be delivered from death and born again.
So, in closing: you asked me who I follow....Jesus and His disciples or Paul?
I am a person who has been born again of the Spirit of God. I am a child of the Living God. The God of Abarham, Issac and Jacob. The Great I AM, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday today and forever.
I follow Him, for He is my life. I follow the example of all of the disciples of Christ, including Paul and many who are alive today, for we are One body, all born of Him and nourished by the Spirit who lives within us.
All who teach otherwise are robbers and thieves (these are the words of Jesus, by the way)."All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them." John 10:8
Dear Khalilur,
First, you are not answering my questions, but going off on other issues. I will address your questions here, but I await your other answers........
It's curious that you assert that the Pauline letters are basically heresy, but you base your arguments on other parts of the New Testament, while you are one who rejects the teachings of Bible itself, so you use parts of the Bible, which you reject to tell me that I should reject even other parts of it! Interesting strategy.
If you purpose is to undermine my faith, then I understand, if it is to truly seek truth as you said, then I do not understand why you do what you do.
Ok: you wrote: Paul was the staunchest enemy of Jesus and his disciples.
I ask: How do you know that? On what do you base this assertion? How did you learn this?
You said: Paul's teaching was mostly the opposite of what Jesus taught.
I ask: How do you know that? On what do you base this assertion? How did you learn this?
You said: Paul's teaching was not agreed with by most of Jesus' disciples.
I ask: Again, how do you know this? Where do you get your information.
Also, this is a simply ridiculous assertion. I actually study the Bible and I know what the various gospels teach, what the letters of Peter say, what the letters of John say as well as what the old testament says.
Paul's teachings did not disagree with those of the other disciples, but I don't know how to prove that to you without going line by line
You said: "Jesus told to follow the commandments & Laws of Moses"
Again, where did you get this information? The Bible?
My answer: In John 10 Jesus makes it clear that He has sheep that are not of the fold of the Jews, so Gentiles were also going to be saved: (Also notice here how the Jews thought Jesus was saying that He was equal with God).....
As for the Way of salvation, NOT being by keeping the Law:
John 3:1-5 This is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus:
"There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
NOTICE, no mention of Moses, no mention of the Commandments in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus instead said that YOU must be born again.
OK, now HERE, Jesus speaks of Moses. What does He say?
John 3: 14-17
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life
Jesus tells how He must be lifted up on a stake/tree/cross just like the bronze serpent was held up my Moses so the people could be healed from the consequence of their sin. Jesus was nailed to that cross by God the Father to pay the penalty for all sins, that we might be delivered from death and born again.
So, in closing: you asked me who I follow....Jesus and His disciples or Paul?
I am a person who has been born again of the Spirit of God. I am a child of the Living God. The God of Abarham, Issac and Jacob. The Great I AM, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday today and forever.
I follow Him, for He is my life. I follow the example of all of the disciples of Christ, including Paul and many who are alive today, for we are One body, all born of Him and nourished by the Spirit who lives within us.
All who teach otherwise are robbers and thieves (these are the words of Jesus, by the way)."All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them." John 10:8
KHALILUR RAHMAN
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. I never intend to undermine your faith. However, I myself is totally confused to find out which one is to be followed from Bible. Each part is contradicting with another part, one sentence is contradicting another sentence, and even the statements are so ambiguous that hardly anybody understands it. I will come that point later on. Firstly, let me reply your questions.
You asked me how I know that Paul was the staunchest enemy of Jesus. Paul himself confessed it. He said- " I am sure that you have heard the story of my earlier life when I lived in the Jewish way. In those days I went all out in persecuting God's church. I was systematically destroying it" (Galatians 1: 14-15).
You asked me how I know that Paul's teaching was mostly the opposite of what Jesus taught. There are many & mostly. I will give you only some examples. Please read the following verses from Mathew.
Mathew 10:5-7 “Do not go to Non-Jew and the village of Samaria . Only go to the lost sheep of Israel”.
Mathew 15:24 Jesus said-“I am sent only to the lost sheep of Israel”.
Mathew 15:26 “It is not good to give the food of Children to dogs.”
Paul was the first person to violate this order of Jesus. He was preaching among the Pagans of Rome & other European cities. But he did not disclose this to the original disciples of Jesus. After 14 years, he took Barnabus with him & went to Jerusalem to get approval of his concept because he was not sure whether he is correct or not. Please read again the verses below.
Galatians 2:1-3 " After 14 years Barnabus& I went to Jerusalem & took Titus with us. I went to clarify with them what had been revealed to me. I told them what I was preaching with non-Jews. I told them in private because I was afraid what I am doing & what I have done may be in vain. Although a non-Jew, my companion Titus was not compelled to circumcise."
Jesus was circumcised at the age of 8 days & it was compulsory for all others. Luke 2:21- "When eighth day arrived, the day of circumcision, the child was named Jesus, the name given by Angels before he was conceived."
Now what happened in Jerusalem? Barnabus& Paul was received in Jerusalem by the leaders & apostles. They sat on a conference to discuss about the proposals of Paul. Some Pharisees were in the opinion of Circumcision & Law of Moses.
" You have to circumcise the Pagan converts & you must make them to keep the Laws of Moses" ( Act 15:5). Now please see below what Jesus said about the Laws & Commandments.
Mathew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I come to destroy the Law and commandments of Moses, but to strengthen them.”
Mathew 18:16-21 People asked-“How to get eternal life in Heaven.” Jesus said- Obey the Commandments of God.”
Mathew 23:2-3 -“Do what you are told to follow the laws of Moses”.
Luke 16:29 - “For salvation, give attention to the books of Moses & Prophets”.
In that Conference Peter was talking in favour of Paul. Finally they decided to follow the following laws only- " Not to associate with activities connected with idols, no adultery, no flesh & blood of a triangulated animal." ( Act 15:20). Paul came back & started preaching against Law of Moses whole heartedly giving all sort of explanation ( Galatians 3:1;25)
Paul said- " Now faith has come & we are no more under the burden of Laws." ( Galatians 3:25).
Now my question is : Can any Disciples or any followers of Jesus do repeal or abrogate any order of Jesus ? Is there any authority for that?
Your last question was, did anybody disagree with Paul? Only Peter & Barnabus was with Paul. But finally both of them left him. Paul continued his struggle alone.
Paul said- “Later, when Peter came to Antioch, I had a face to face confrontation with him because he was clearly out of line. Here's the situation. Earlier, before certain persons had come from James, Peter regularly ate with non-Jews. But, when the conservative group came from Jerusalem, he cautiously pulled back & put as much as distance from non-Jews friend. That’s how fearful he was of the conservative Jews clique that’s been pushing the old system of circumcision. Unfortunately, the rest of the Jews in the Antioch Church joined in that hypocrisy so that even Barnabus was swept along in the charade." ( Galatians 2:11-1?)
Now my friend, have you seen that all Jews disciples of Jesus had left Paul & now it has become a non-Jews Paulian religion which has repealed most of the orders/Instruction/teachings of Jesus.
To: [email protected]
You asked me how I know that Paul was the staunchest enemy of Jesus. Paul himself confessed it. He said- " I am sure that you have heard the story of my earlier life when I lived in the Jewish way. In those days I went all out in persecuting God's church. I was systematically destroying it" (Galatians 1: 14-15).
You asked me how I know that Paul's teaching was mostly the opposite of what Jesus taught. There are many & mostly. I will give you only some examples. Please read the following verses from Mathew.
Mathew 10:5-7 “Do not go to Non-Jew and the village of Samaria . Only go to the lost sheep of Israel”.
Mathew 15:24 Jesus said-“I am sent only to the lost sheep of Israel”.
Mathew 15:26 “It is not good to give the food of Children to dogs.”
Paul was the first person to violate this order of Jesus. He was preaching among the Pagans of Rome & other European cities. But he did not disclose this to the original disciples of Jesus. After 14 years, he took Barnabus with him & went to Jerusalem to get approval of his concept because he was not sure whether he is correct or not. Please read again the verses below.
Galatians 2:1-3 " After 14 years Barnabus& I went to Jerusalem & took Titus with us. I went to clarify with them what had been revealed to me. I told them what I was preaching with non-Jews. I told them in private because I was afraid what I am doing & what I have done may be in vain. Although a non-Jew, my companion Titus was not compelled to circumcise."
Jesus was circumcised at the age of 8 days & it was compulsory for all others. Luke 2:21- "When eighth day arrived, the day of circumcision, the child was named Jesus, the name given by Angels before he was conceived."
Now what happened in Jerusalem? Barnabus& Paul was received in Jerusalem by the leaders & apostles. They sat on a conference to discuss about the proposals of Paul. Some Pharisees were in the opinion of Circumcision & Law of Moses.
" You have to circumcise the Pagan converts & you must make them to keep the Laws of Moses" ( Act 15:5). Now please see below what Jesus said about the Laws & Commandments.
Mathew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I come to destroy the Law and commandments of Moses, but to strengthen them.”
Mathew 18:16-21 People asked-“How to get eternal life in Heaven.” Jesus said- Obey the Commandments of God.”
Mathew 23:2-3 -“Do what you are told to follow the laws of Moses”.
Luke 16:29 - “For salvation, give attention to the books of Moses & Prophets”.
In that Conference Peter was talking in favour of Paul. Finally they decided to follow the following laws only- " Not to associate with activities connected with idols, no adultery, no flesh & blood of a triangulated animal." ( Act 15:20). Paul came back & started preaching against Law of Moses whole heartedly giving all sort of explanation ( Galatians 3:1;25)
Paul said- " Now faith has come & we are no more under the burden of Laws." ( Galatians 3:25).
Now my question is : Can any Disciples or any followers of Jesus do repeal or abrogate any order of Jesus ? Is there any authority for that?
Your last question was, did anybody disagree with Paul? Only Peter & Barnabus was with Paul. But finally both of them left him. Paul continued his struggle alone.
Paul said- “Later, when Peter came to Antioch, I had a face to face confrontation with him because he was clearly out of line. Here's the situation. Earlier, before certain persons had come from James, Peter regularly ate with non-Jews. But, when the conservative group came from Jerusalem, he cautiously pulled back & put as much as distance from non-Jews friend. That’s how fearful he was of the conservative Jews clique that’s been pushing the old system of circumcision. Unfortunately, the rest of the Jews in the Antioch Church joined in that hypocrisy so that even Barnabus was swept along in the charade." ( Galatians 2:11-1?)
Now my friend, have you seen that all Jews disciples of Jesus had left Paul & now it has become a non-Jews Paulian religion which has repealed most of the orders/Instruction/teachings of Jesus.
To: [email protected]